Turning down $200 million and the big bets that led to powering 40% of the internet
In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I’m joined by Matt Mullenweg, CEO of Automattic and co-founder of WordPress, the open-source platform that now powers 43% of the internet.
Recorded on the 20th anniversary of Automattic, our conversation is a deep dive into what it takes to build enduring companies on top of open infrastructure. We explore Matt’s open-source philosophy, why WordPress has stayed true to its roots, and how Automattic continues to innovate, from pioneering remote work to rethinking compensation models.
In our conversation today, we talk about the following topics:
• The early days of WordPress and its open-source fork from b2/cafelog
• Why trust is a company’s greatest asset—and how open source fuels it
• The overlooked power of open standards like RSS
• How open source moved from fringe to mainstream, and is even embraced by Microsoft
• Why Automattic started remote-first in 2005, long before it was common
• How global salaries help Automattic attract and retain top talent
• Automattic’s alignment offer that reinforced team commitment and focus
• What Matt’s excited about in AI
• And much more!
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Where to find Matt Mullenweg:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattm/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/photomatt/?hl=en
• Website: https://ma.tt/
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Where to find Eric:
• Newsletter:https://ericries.carrd.co/
• Podcast:https://ericriesshow.com/
• YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow
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In This Episode We Cover:
(00:00) Intro
(02:05) Reflecting on 20 years of Automattic
(03:14) Why Matt turned down an offer to buy WordPress for hundreds of millions of dollars
(08:34) The story of WordPress and its open-source origins
(15:15) How Matt’s love of jazz inspires his collaborative work style
(16:12) The ethos of WordPress
(18:38) Why WordPress followed web standards rather than create its own
(23:30) The Four Freedoms of software and how open source builds trust
(28:46) Why open source was once demonized—and what changed
(33:35) Eric’s open source future prediction and Matt’s thoughts
(38:03) Sol Price’s customer focus and why great businesses give more than they take
(40:34) Why Matt started Automattic and chose to operate fully remote
(49:34) More unique features of Automattic
(54:40) Matt’s thoughts on when to go to court
(58:15) Alignment offers, and other ways Automattic keeps employees aligned
(1:01:52) The state of Automattic currently, and their new product, Beeper
(1:04:26) Matt’s thoughts on AI
(1:06:36) Advice for aspiring open source founders—and Matt’s dream projects
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Referenced
- Automattic: https://automattic.com/
- The Long Now Foundation: https://longnow.org/
- WordPress: https://wordpress.org/
- SourceForge: https://sourceforge.net/
- IRC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC
- Michel Valdrighi on X: https://x.com/kalaphates
- Moveable Type: https://www.movabletype.com/
- Blogger: https://www.blogger.com/
- Mike Little on X: https://x.com/mikelittlezed1
- Mike’s “if you’re serious” comment: https://mastodon.online/@mikelittle/109750330062088036
- Christine Tremoulet’s website: https://christinetremoulet.com/
- W3c: https://www.w3.org/
- Jeffrey Zeldman on X: https://x.com/zeldman
- What is RSS: https://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification#google_vignette
- The Four Freedoms: https://ma.tt/2014/01/four-freedoms/
- React: https://react.dev/
- GitHub: https://github.com/
- WooCommerce: https://woocommerce.com/
- Sol Price: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Price
- He turned down $11 billion, here’s why | Craig Newmark (Craigslist Founder): https://www.ericriesshow.com/craig-newmark-craigslist/
- GitLab: http://gitlab.com/
- 37 Signals: https://37signals.com/
- Wix and Their Dirty Tricks: https://ma.tt/2021/04/wix-dirty-tricks/
- Beeper: https://www.beeper.com/
- Qwen: https://chat.qwen.ai/
- DeepSeek: https://www.deepseek.com/
- The Lean Startup: How Today's Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses Hardcover: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0307887898
- Marc Andreesen’s Substack: https://pmarca.substack.com/
- Y Combinator: https://www.ycombinator.com/
- Paul Graham’s website: https://www.paulgraham.com/
- Home Assistant: https://www.home-assistant.io/
- The Inmates Are Running the Asylum: https://www.amazon.com/Inmates-Are-Running-Asylum/dp/0672316498/
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Production and marketing by Pen Name.
Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.
