The playbook for fixing toxic culture, pointless friction, and broken systems | Bob Sutton (Stanford, NYT bestselling author)
In this episode of The Eric Ries Show , I’m joined by Bob Sutton, organizational psychologist and New York Times bestselling author of several influential books on leadership, behavior, and workplace culture, including his latest: The Friction Project.
We explore insights from across his body of work, including real-world examples of large organizations that have figured out how to operate more effectively and ethically—despite the inherent messiness of human systems.
We discuss:
• Ideas from The Knowing-Doing Gap , including the importance of psychological safety and a breakdown of “the smart talk trap”
• Why even the best-run companies are still flawed
• The surprising number of companies owned by private foundations, including Hershey Chocolate and Ikea
• How well-run organizations resist management fads while staying open to real innovation
• A story from Tim Cook about critical thinking in HR—and the cost of over-hiring
• “Addition sickness”: what happens when too many people work on a problem
• Strategies for removing friction
• The “No Asshole Rule”: why toxic leaders damage performance and morale
• The best founders strike the right balance between confidence and humility
• And much more!
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Where to find Bob Sutton:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobsutton1/
• Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/bobsutton.net
• Website: https://bobsutton.net/
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Where to find Eric:
• Newsletter: https://ericries.carrd.co/
• Podcast: https://ericriesshow.com/
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow
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In This Episode We Cover:
(00:00) Intro
(01:45) Insights from The Knowing Doing Gap
(09:29) How Becky Margiotta rewarded the doers of her 100,000 homes project
(12:24) An explanation of why every organization is flawed
(21:32) A case for still trying to improve the way companies are run
(26:03) How larger organizations always do things worse—some worse than others
(27:58) A case of organizational improvement: The California Department of Motor Vehicles
(29:58) Companies owned by private foundations and other unique models
(33:52) Lessons from Tim Cook around thinking critically about hiring
(36:26) Addition sickness
(39:58) Strategies for removing friction and adding good friction
(46:42) Simple practices that work
(49:50) The ‘no asshole’ rule
(52:32) The pitfalls of holacracy and an explanation of ‘stagegate’
(57:18) Why founders sometimes need to step back after scaling
(1:01:09) Advice for founders who want to stay CEOs and operate in founder mode
(1:04:40) The importance of ‘torchbearers’ and resisting pressures for short-term gains
(1:08:30) A case for doing things the right way, even if you don’t have to
(1:11:05) How corruption eventually degrades an organization
(1:18:03) Lightning round
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Referenced:
- The No Asshole Rule: Building a Civilized Workplace and Surviving One That Isn't: https://www.amazon.com/Asshole-Rule-Civilized-Workplace-Surviving/dp/0446698202
- The Knowing-Doing Gap: How Smart Companies Turn Knowledge into Action: https://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Doing-Gap-Companies-Knowledge-Action/dp/1578511240/
- The Friction Project: How Smart Leaders Make the Right Things Easier and the Wrong Things Harder: https://www.amazon.com/Friction-Project-Leaders-Things-Easier/dp/1250284414/
- McKinsey Consulting: https://www.mckinsey.com/
- Jeffrey Pfeffer’s website: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/
- Facts about Google’s acquisition of Motorola: https://www.google.com/press/motorola/
- Apollo 11: https://www.nasa.gov/mission/apollo-11/
- Becky Margiotta on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/becky-margiotta/
- The 100,000 Homes Campaign: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/case-studies/100000-homes-campaign
- Adam Grant’s website: https://adamgrant.net/
- Creativity, Inc.: Overcoming the Unseen Forces That Stand in the Way of True Inspiration: https://www.amazon.com/Creativity-Inc-Overcoming-Unseen-Inspiration/dp/0812993012
- Ed Catmull on X: https://x.com/edcatmull
- Papal conclave: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_conclave
- Scaling Up Excellence: Getting to More Without Settling for Less: https://www.amazon.com/Scaling-Up-Excellence-Getting-Settling/dp/0385347022
- Huggy Rao’s website: https://huggyrao.com/
- Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/
- Google: https://about.google/
- Meta: https://www.meta.com/
- Chris Cox on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-cox-2896b841/
- Sheryl Sandberg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheryl-sandberg-5126652/
- DOGE: https://doge.gov/
- Steve Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenpgordon/
- Alibaba: https://www.alibaba.com/
- Grundfos: https://www.grundfos.com/
- Hershey: https://www.thehersheycompany.com/
- Novo Nordisk: https://www.novonordisk-us.com/
- Bosch: https://www.bosch.com/
- Automattic: https://automattic.com/
- Costco: https://www.costco.com/
- Tim Cook on X: https://x.com/tim_cook
- Mythical Man-Month, The: Essays on Software Engineering:https://www.amazon.com/Mythical-Man-Month-Software-Engineering-Anniversary/dp/0201835959
- Jon Levin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/president-jon-levin/
- Design Thinking: Understanding how designers think and work: https://www.amazon.com/Design-Thinking-Understanding-designers-think/dp/1350305065
- The Lean Startup: How Today's Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0307887898/
- George Carlin talks about stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvgN5gCuLac
- Asana: https://asana.com/
- Andy Miller on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andymiller44/
- Civilla: https://civilla.org/
- Project Re:form: https://civilla.org/work/project-reform
- Howard Schultz on X: https://x.com/howardschultz
- Satya Nadella on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/satyanadella/
- Steve Ballmer on X: https://x.com/steven_ballmer
- Amy Coleman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amycoleman19/
- Dr. Marc Gillinov: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/staff/2350-a-marc-gillinov
- Founder mode: https://paulgraham.com/foundermode.html
- Brian Chesky on X: https://x.com/bchesky
- Reid Hoffman challenges your thinking on AI, governance, and politics: https://www.ericriesshow.com/reid-hoffman/
- AG Lafley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ag-lafley-2381b3201/
- Toby Cosgrove on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toby-cosgrove-76094158/
- Jeff Bezos on X: https://x.com/jeffbezos
- Todd Park on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/todd-park-3232573/
- McDonald’s: https://corporate.mcdonalds.com/corpmcd/home.html
- Walmart: https://corporate.walmart.com/
- Devoted Health: https://www.devoted.com/
- Clinical Software and Bad Decisions: The “Practice Fusion” Settlement and Its Implications: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9233625/
- Chip Heath on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chipheath/
- 17 things I believe: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/bobsutton1_17-things-i-believe-circa-2023-activity-7069320215620194305-jdos/
- David Kelley: https://dschool.stanford.edu/directory/david-kelley
- Why Big Teams Suck: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140303152358-15893932-why-big-teams-suck/
- Karl Weick: https://lsa.umich.edu/psych/people/emeriti-faculty/karlw.html
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Production and marketing by Pen Name.
Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.
