How to move beyond bureaucracy, not waste talent, and innovate faster | Michele Zanini & Gary Hamel
Bureaucracy was once a breakthrough. Today, it’s become a costly drag on innovation, human potential, and business impact. In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I sit down with Gary Hamel and Michele Zanini, authors of Humanocracy, to explore how organizations can move beyond outdated management models and unlock true human thriving.
Hamel and Zanini have spent years researching and advising some of the world’s most forward-thinking companies. Together, we make the case for replacing top-down control with systems that maximize contribution, creativity, and ownership at every level.
We dive into how to rethink management from first principles, why employee engagement is at historic lows, and what leaders can do to build organizations that unlock the full potential of their people.
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Where to find Gary Hamel:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garyhamel/
• Website: https://www.garyhamel.com/
Where to find Michele Zanini:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelezanini/
• X: https://x.com/michelezanini
• Website: https://www.michelezanini.com/
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Where to find Eric:
• Newsletter:https://ericries.carrd.co/
• Podcast:https://ericriesshow.com/
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In This Episode We Cover:
(00:00) Intro
(02:02) The importance of human-invented management concepts
(04:20) How Gary came up with core competencies
(07:15) The benefits of bureaucracy (a brief history of labor and management)
(13:00) The General Motors near-bankruptcy story
(15:00) Why management is the greatest human concept, but due for reinvention
(23:20) Outlier companies with unconventional structures
(24:00) Why management needs new paradigms and principles
(29:55) The lost opportunity of Mary Parker Follett’s management philosophy
(35:45) The dominance of ‘left-brained’ leadership in management philosophy
(38:52) Core ideas behind Humanocracy
(55:44) Tips for building healthy, efficient organizations
(1:03:36) The overlooked lessons from outlier companies like Vanguard
(1:12:21) What Harvard Law’s startup study reveals about founder control
(1:15:55) Why unlocking human potential is a CEO’s core mission
(1:19:42) Advice for founders on avoiding the pitfalls of bureaucracy
(1:22:15) Why every great company is driven by a great purpose
(1:27:00) Examples of companies operating from first principles
(1:31:14) Why productivity matters, and how it’s linked with bureaucracy
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- Humanocracy: Creating Organizations as Amazing as the People Inside Them: https://www.amazon.com/Humanocracy-Creating-Organizations-Amazing-People/dp/1633696022
- Delaware General Corporation Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware_General_Corporation_Law
- My Years with General Motors: https://www.amazon.com/Years-General-Motors-Alfred-Sloan/dp/0385042353
- Peter Drucker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Drucker
- Warren Bennis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Bennis
- Douglas McGregor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_McGregor
- Mary Parker Follett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Parker_Follett
- W.L. Gore: https://www.gore.com/
- What Will Management Look Like in the Next 100 Years?: https://hbr.org/2022/09/what-will-management-look-like-in-the-next-100-years
- Ikea: https://www.ikea.com/
- Hershey: https://www.thehersheycompany.com/
- Mondragon: https://www.mondragon-corporation.com
- John Lewis Partnership: https://www.johnlewispartnership.co.uk/
- Grundfos: https://www.grundfos.com/
- John Locke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke
- Thomas Kuhn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kuhn
- Frederick Winslow Taylor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Winslow_Taylor
- Rowntree’s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowntree%27s
- Employee engagement: https://www.gallup.com/394373/indicator-employee-engagement.aspx
- Factors Affecting Employees’ Problem-Solving Skills in Technology-Rich Environments in Japan and Korea: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343989675_Factors_Affecting_Employees'_Problem-Solving_Skills_in_Technology-Rich_Environments_in_Japan_and_Korea
- The real reason the Death Star blew up: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/michelezanini_management-humanocracy-starwars-activity-7354120178437136384-ixwT?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAABf37PYBgozFf00ihr4fkqjRtMnFajHkQ5E
- Vanguard: https://investor.vanguard.com/
- REI: https://www.rei.com/
- John Bogle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Bogle
- Nucor: https://nucor.com/
- Svenska Handelsbanken: https://www.handelsbanken.se/
- Entrepreneurship & Startups: https://journals.law.harvard.edu/hblr/entrepreneurship-startups/
- Linus Torvalds on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/linustorvalds/
- The Oracle Of Silicon Valley Shares How to Create More Value Than You Capture | Tim O’Reilly: https://www.ericriesshow.com/tim-oreilly/
- He turned down $11 billion, here’s why | Craig Newmark (Craigslist Founder): https://www.ericriesshow.com/craig-newmark-craigslist/
- The biggest problem with capitalism? Not enough capitalists: https://fortune.com/2020/11/21/capitalism-entrepreneurship-economic-inequality-us-bureaucracy/
- Buurtzorg: https://www.buurtzorg.com/
- Ken Iverson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._Kenneth_Iverson
- Roche: https://www.roche.com/
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Production and marketing by Pen Name.
Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.
